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Poland and Israel: History and Present


The debate "Poland and Israel: History and Present" organized by the International Civil Society Institute and ELNET-Poland took place on May 5, 2021.

The following speakers took part in the debate: Marek Magierowski (Ambassador of Poland to Israel), Agnieszka Magdziak-Miszewska (Ambassador of Poland to Israel from 2006-2012), Zvi Rav-Ner (Ambassador of Israel to Poland from 2009-2014) and Konstanty Gebert (psychologist, journalist and academic teacher). The debate was moderated by Jacek Stawiski (TV and radio journalist).

Guest speakers at the beginning of the debate were Tal Ben-Ari Yaalon, Chargè d'Affaires of the Israeli Embassy in Poland and Michał Szczerba, Chairman of the Polish-Israeli Parliamentary Group.

The first to speak was Marek Magierowski, who has been the Polish Ambassador to Israel for nearly 3 years. One of the priorities of his diplomatic work during his term in office is organic work - education through meetings with young people, teachers and guides. - As a result of the pandemic hitting us hard we lost over a year of work. We traveled around Israel, visiting schools, campuses, meeting with young people and trying to talk openly about our shared history. We also visited smaller cities and towns, because we think this brings the best results. Positivist work, work at the grassroots is very important and probably my successors will see the effects of these activities," he said at the beginning.

Before World War II, Poland was home to 3,300,000 Jews, making it the largest Jewish community in Europe at that time. The Ambassador of the Republic of Poland to Israel emphasized that it is extremely important to show our long common history - I touch upon difficult subjects, I do not run away from Kielce, from Jedwabne. But I try to show the whole context of our sometimes difficult relations. What I encounter is that for many, especially young people, Polish-Israeli relations are only this 6-year period of tragic war and extermination. The first step is to convey the information that this is nearly 900 years of common history, not only 6 years of war - he said.

- During these meetings, it often turns out that for young people Poland has two distinct associations. First, a large cemetery. Each trip means visits to at least several museums that are located on the grounds of former concentration camps, and on the other hand, cheap shopping. Poland is attractive in this respect. And my task is to fill this void between these two poles, because Poland is not only this terrible history and not only a cheap, attractive country where you can have a nice time. It is also history, art, culture, sports," said Ambassador Magierowski.

At the beginning of the debate, we also asked the Chairman of the Polish-Israeli Parliamentary Group, Michał Szczerba MP, to take the floor. The special guest talked about the work of the group, which has 131 members from both houses of the parliament. Israel can be a great inspiration not only in terms of effectiveness in combating pandemics and organizing vaccinations. It is also technology, economy, supporting start-ups and business incubators. In these areas Israel still remains an unmatched model. According to the MP, one of the great challenges facing Poland in the context of Polish-Israeli relations is the adoption by our country of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. - Historical policy is very important, including taking care of the International Auschwitz Council so that the international community can be more united in caring for this place," said Michał Szczerba.

The second special guest was Tal Bel-Ari Yaalon, Chargé d'Affaires of the Israeli Embassy in Poland. - It has been 31 years since the renewal of Polish-Israeli relations, but as mentioned earlier, the relationship has lasted much longer, almost 1000 years. We are still focusing on this period of World War II, which should be left to historians. When I came to Poland three years ago I noticed that Poles and Israelis are very similar and we should focus on what unites us," she said.  According to Tal Bel-Ari Yaalon, we have achieved a lot in the areas of trade cooperation, business, culture, academic exchange, but we are still far from reaching our full potential. In her speech, she raised the issue of anti-Semitism. - It is hard for me when I see surveys in which 1 in 5 Poles are happy that there are fewer and fewer Jews in Poland, or horrible comments about the tragedy that recently took place in Israel, but there are also many people who work to improve these relations, such as the ELNET-Poland organization, and this comforts me - she said.

She concluded her speech by saying that she tries to focus on the positives in our bilateral relations. Anti-Semitism is a big problem, but she prefers to focus on actions to improve these relations, to improve the present and our future, because we have so much in common.

The moderator of the debate, TV journalist Jacek Stawiski, drew attention to the deterioration of Polish-Israeli relations in 2018. He asked whether the pandemic offers an opportunity to reset relations and a chance for improvement.

The Polish ambassador to Israel said that in the context of the pandemic, it is worth learning from Israel about the effectiveness of vaccination. However, what makes diplomatic work much more difficult now is the ongoing election campaign. In Israel, there have already been four elections, and there may be a need to hold more, as there is no parliamentary majority.

Zvi Rav-Ner, Israel's ambassador to Poland from 2009 to 2014, responding to such a question, said that he sees a chance for a reset. Perhaps the pandemic is a kind of time-out, a break, an opportunity for activities to improve relations. He also pointed out that history does not only divide us, on the contrary, it largely unites us. So does politics - a strong alliance with the US, with NATO. Both countries are part of the Western world. Moreover, tourism is flourishing both ways, cooperation in security fields, defense production.  He pointed out that governments in Poland and Israel are similar. - In recent years you and I have been governed by conservatives. From our side there is a desire to end the historical debate between us, we want to move forward. But something keeps popping up, like the IPN bill or controversial political appointments, and it keeps us from moving forward," said Rav-Ner.

Agnieszka Magdziak-Miszewska, Polish Ambassador to Israel from 2006-2012, spoke next - When I started my diplomatic work in Israel, the main foundations of cooperation between our countries had been laid. This was after years of persistent work on changing stereotypes on both sides. Working at the grassroots, with teachers, youth, guides - this is work that never ends. It was also a priority when I was ambassador to Israel - she said.

According to the Ambassador, changing the image of Poland in Israel is very important. She mentioned the celebrations of the Polish Year in Israel in 2008-2009. At that time 140 cultural events took place. On this occasion the post offices of both countries issued a common postage stamp with the image of Berek Joselewicz, a Polish Jew and a hero of the Kościuszko Uprising. - It is a great pity that this dialogue is not continued. Both countries are governed by conservative-nationalist groups and pursue historical politics. In this case, it is a huge obstacle to dialogue and rapprochement. But I believe in the future - said Agnieszka Magdziak-Miszewska.

Konstanty Gebert said that it is not the differences that are our problem, but the similarities. It is the similarities that make us important to each other and that is why we cannot stand each other. Young Poles who are interested in Polish Jewish history do not do so because of their relations with Israel, but because they try to understand their country. Similarly, in Israel, young people who are interested in the history of their great-grandparents do not do it to understand Poland, but to understand Israel.

- Poland and Israel are governed by similar political parties. They are similar to the point of pain. Both countries share political, economic, military and security interests. They have no fundamental contemporary conflicts, but the past hangs over them like the Alps over Switzerland. Since for both countries historical politics is fundamental, politicians in both countries can spin creative stories. There is no limit to the historical manipulation that politicians will not use. Hence the despair of professional diplomats on the ground, who try to push mutual relations forward when nothing stands in their way, and this nothing turns out to be an insurmountable obstacle," said the journalist and academic teacher.

According to Gebert, in happier countries history lives in textbooks. In Poland and Israel, history is the most important thing, because the present and the future depend on it. Fortunately, there are young people who enter life unburdened by all this baggage. But this baggage is waiting for them. First of all, governments should not lie. Governments should "detach" themselves from historians. - It should be agreed that anti-Semitism is an evil that also harms non-Jews. Spreading anti-Semitism threatens democracy like any other racism or xenophobia. We need to know how to navigate between the fact that on the one hand we have a baggage of similarities, and on the other it makes it so terribly difficult for us to do something together," said Konstanty Gebert.

In the next part of the debate, Marek Magierowski talked about stereotypes and the image of Poland in Israel. He drew attention to the rhetoric in Israeli media. - When invited guests and journalists talk about France - they mention cinema, culture, food. When they talk about Great Britain, they mention soccer.  However, when they talk about Poland, they mention history, and the darker one, and anti-Semitism.

He also noted that Polish-Israeli relations cannot be based on Internet comments published by anonymous accounts, because then we will not go further, especially that in countries such as France or the USA there are unfortunately many such comments.

Ambassador Magierowski talked about the "Polish Women" project, which the Polish embassy in Tel Aviv is currently implementing. - We are trying to depart from the perception of our relations solely through the history of Jews of Polish origin or Poles of Jewish origin. We tell the story of Polish women and their contribution to our culture. Of course, many of them have Jewish roots. This is a way not to go into strictly political subjects, but at the same time to show people of different political views and to promote such figures as Anna Walentynowicz, Wisława Szymborska, or Olga Tokarczuk and many other women - in this way building the image of Poland. And also to show how many women of Jewish origin have contributed to building the Polish identity," said Marek Magierowski.

In the context of geopolitical cooperation, it is assessed as very good. - We are valued as a country that has experience and knowledge of the Middle East, resulting from the former years when we were part of the Soviet camp and worked here quite intensively. Today Israelis benefit from this knowledge and value it highly - said the ambassador. Moreover, the Jerusalem-Washington-Warsaw triangle plays an extremely important role. The Israelis consider us to be a strong and stable ally in the EU and at the UN. Poland is perceived as a generally friendly country on the level of geopolitical cooperation.

- Our relations should also be viewed from the perspective of Israeli-Russian relations, which are going very well. From Poland's point of view, this is a complicated issue, and it can be a contribution to the discussion about Polish-Israeli relations," said Ambassador Magierowski.

According to Zvi Rav-Ner, political relations between Poland and Israel are also good. He mentioned the four groups created on the basis of the Visegrad Group. He stressed that during the first Law and Justice governments, when Lech Kaczyński was President and Jarosław Kaczyński was Prime Minister, despite historical conflicts, relations were very good. He pointed out that the history of the Holocaust is not always divisive, because there is a lot of cooperation in the field of memory. - It does not have to be a problem that the parties cannot work together. We have so many other things that unite us. We can always rely on Poland also in the EU, or at the UN - he said.

The former Israeli ambassador to Poland referred to Marek Magierowski's statement about good relations between Israel and Russia. He said that they are not entirely "excellent". It is true that they share a common military interest in Syria, but this has no meaning for Polish-Israeli relations. - These are completely different issues and do not affect each other," he concluded.

Konstanty Gebert, commenting on what is happening on Internet forums and in social media, said that anti-Semitism has been normalized in Poland. This is also evidenced by the growing number of Poles who believe in ritual murder or the stereotype that Jews strive to rule the world. He said that similarly nasty opinions can be found on the Israeli Internet about Poles. The Internet fosters such terrible prejudices. - Only that anti-Semitism is not a prejudice. After the experience of World War II, anti-Semitism is a crime," said Gebert.

According to Agnieszka Magdziak-Miszewska, the auction of victims is beginning in Poland, just like in the rest of Europe - everyone wants to be the biggest victim. One can come across an opinion that the Polish nation was the same victim as the Jewish nation. This is very dangerous. Unfortunately, there are and will be nasty things on the Internet. There will always be people who spill their hatred there. - During the 30 years of my work, all successive Polish governments have worked to combat anti-Semitism. Even people who were secretly anti-Semitic knew that they could not reveal such views in public. Now there seems to be no such reserves. I say this with bitterness after 30 years of my commitment and work for the normalization of Polish-Israeli relations, which may be squandered through political actions - concluded the former Polish ambassador to Israel.